Career federal managers have been asking themselves, how the heck can I operate in the chaotic environment of DOGE? And if I throw out diversity, equity and inclusion, how can I make sure I’m not running afoul of equal employment opportunity rules. We got some answers from former EEOC trial attorney and founder of Employment Learning Innovations, Stephen Paskoff, who joined the Federal Drive with Tom Temin to discuss.
Interview transcript:
Tom Temin: You have worked with federal agencies recently in this very question. I mean, maybe let’s start with the difference between DEI and EEO, because I think EEO has been established for decades, and probably a lot of people found the DEI training the way it was delivered a little bit perverse.
Stephen Paskoff: You hit the key issue: DEI and EEO should be connected. They come from the same origins, and one of the issues are written about and talked about for years is that they need to work together. Unfortunately, quite often there’s a clash. So instead of thinking of people as whose hands are clasped together, quite often they’re colliding. And in fact, I’ve tried to present this argument in the government. You’ve got to be careful that DEI and EEO work together and they don’t collide, because you get a clash and a backlash, which is what we’re seeing now.
Tom Temin: Yes. Because the way DEI was presented in many organizations was kind of a sociology or a philosophical or mind engineering type of exercise, where, guess what, you’re a bigot and you didn’t even know it. And I think people rebelled against that. People who were perfectly willing to not hire on the basis of gender, race or any of those other considerations.
Stephen Paskoff: Well, that’s exactly what a lot of the blowback has triggered and in essence, do. I should work with EEO, and they should be governed by many of the same standards. And to the extent that you asked how people should deal with this is, the core thing they need to remember is they are all connected and bound by a common mission, vision and values of wherever they work. And it is not designed to be at the workplace, a social initiative, it’s designed to get the best talent to be fully utilized to deliver the best results. And by the way, when it’s done properly, it is consistent with the original principles of DEI when it started, which were connecting very closely to equal employment opportunity and should remain that going forward.
Tom Temin: Yeah, I think that word opportunity is the operative one. Everyone has the same opportunity, regardless of whatever background or they bring to it or their gender or you name it. Whereas that word equity, that’s something that came in recently and equity seemed to imply, well, we all get the same result or we get the same amount of, I don’t know, promotions or that somehow the workplace should be proportionately represented by whatever the population is. None of those things have anything to do with equal opportunity.
Stephen Paskoff: Equal opportunity is what should be driving the behavior. And if I may, I’ve been making and when I’ve spoken to federal audiences as recently as yesterday on behalf of the EEOC, which included federal, local, and private employers. But it’s the same message. And it’s really question, do you want to find the best talent wherever you can find them? That means looking broadly to make sure that you are doing this. And virtually everyone will say yes. Now, when you’re going to invest in that talent for the organization, you are in the federal sector making an investment of taxpayers money. And is it fair to say that you should be finding that not only the best talent, but making sure that they’re fully engaged and utilized to participate deliver results for the American public. People say, “of course.” The next thing is, of course, we have to do that legally, right? Yes. Of course. And you also have to take into account that you have specific organizational values. And they have got to be behavioral, not aspirational. And the idea is, is that you put those together and as you were suggesting, you get the best results in the line with equal employment opportunity and other legal standards. And it also reduces risks, not just risks of lawsuits, but a performance that doesn’t fulfill the organization’s mission.
Tom Temin: How can agencies management, what’s left of it, after all of the reductions, convey that to employees and to prospective employees (presuming the government will get back into hiring one of these days, probably hire back most of the people it has to let go), but convey to them the idea that, yes, of course, we support all of the principles of equal opportunity, even in the absence of having DEI programs in place. In other words, they have to still have cred with people.
Stephen Paskoff: Well, they’ve got to constantly say, “look, we’ve got an important mission,” and I’m going to give you a very specific example of one that I used in the last 2 or 3 months, right. Here’s the example: Do you want to get the best people wherever you can find? Is that what you want? Yes. Do you want to make sure they’re fully engaged in all aspects of their job? Yes we do. Now, your values say that you’ve got to have a few things you want to find out. And you want people to communicate. You want them to speak up. If that’s the type of workplace you’re trying to build, and you are responsible as agents for the United States government to act legally right? Now, here’s why that all matters. When you get the best people fully engaged in participating, when you make sure they’re treated in line with the law, you’re also encouraging them to speak up about problems and issues and not hesitate and speak up and ideally, be listened to. And if they’re not to go for no. Tom, do you ever get on an airplane?
Tom Temin: Quite a few times.
Stephen Paskoff: Do you want to make sure that the people at TSA are speaking up? If they think that somebody next to you is bringing on something that they shouldn’t? Do you want them to have the observational abilities as sharp as anyone that you could possibly imagine, when you were someone you care about steps on a plane? That’s why you get the best talent. That’s why you fully engaged. And that’s why they speak up in line with TSA values to protect you, me, and the public. That’s what we’re trying to do.
Tom Temin: Right. So beyond sheer compliance with the EEO regulations and statutes. You still, as a manager, have to build a courage, a workplace that is accepting of people as they are so that you can get past the pettiness and the maybe leaving people out of discussions that should be in on it, because they’re just people there to do a job, and otherwise the rest doesn’t matter.
Stephen Paskoff: I do believe that you want to have the best talent, and I also believe that when you bring people into an organization, their common commitment to the mission, vision, values to the work should be the first thing that happens. Are you a sports fan or do you have a particular passion that I can use as an example? Tom.
Tom Temin: Well, I’m a big baseball fan.
Stephen Paskoff: What’s your team?
Tom Temin: The Nationals.
Stephen Paskoff: Okay, well, I’m from Pittsburgh originally. That’s where I grew up.
Tom Temin: Well, my first game ever as a child was in Forbes Field. So let’s go with the Pirates.
Stephen Paskoff: Okay, I’m going to make you a Pirates fan. All right. Look. Say you’re a Pirates fan and I’m a Pirates fan. And I don’t know you, and you don’t know me, and we happen to be in DC, right? Okay. We’re at a game. Everybody there is wearing national uniform, right? And hats. You and I sit down next to each other. Everything about us is different demographically. Whatever. But you’re wearing a Pirate’s hat. I’m wearing a Pirate’s hat. What would you say to me if I sat down next to you? Even though everything about us was different, politically? Different buttons. What would you say?
Tom Temin: Yeah, well, we’ve got this in common.
Stephen Paskoff: You’d say we got to beat this team, right? Because we would connect on commonalities. And when you work together, a TSA or DUI or DOJ, NIH, keep going, you have that commonality which should link you, and the more you get to know people, yeah, there are differences, but it’s not the only thing you see. It’s just part of the mix. And in the workplace, that’s something to consider if you want to build workplaces where you get the results. Make sure when you think your standards, say that there are certain things you never say about a person’s characteristics. You never write them. You don’t text. And because yes, there is legal risk, but you say them or make stereotypical assumptions to those who hear about it, they’ll remember and you’re not going to work through it and affect performance. Other issues. If we’ve got issues, you and I work them out or we work them up the system and then they’ve got to be listened to and you move forward. Problems arise and you resolve them sooner rather than later and move forward to do your great work.
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